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ATWT - Luke/Noah SPOILERS For Tuesday, November 25thSPOILER SPACE
- - - - - - - - - - - - - It's a short week for ATWT (the show only airs Monday - Wednesday) and on Tuesday, it's Thanksgiving at Snyder Farm. Luke, however, is not thankful for given the mess his life is in. To recap, he got kicked out of school, his boyfriend dumped him and his new step-grandfather kissed him. So Luke is hitting the sauce early and often and we're not talking cranberry. Holden notices Luke is upset and tries to cheer him up, but Luke isn't having any. So Holden goes to see Noah and convinces him to come to the farm for the holiday. When Noah arrives, Luke is naturally glad to see him and sees this as a ray of hope. Of course, Noah is quick to tell Luke that he only came because Holden asked him and that nothing has changed between them. Ouch! Luke returns to his old friend Bud (weiser, that is), which no one seems to notice. When Brian and Lucinda show up for the festivities, Luke is hostile to his new admirer. Noah pulls Luke aside and tells Luke to shelve the attitude towards Brian. When Luke tells Noah about Brian kissing him, Noah doesn't believe it....
Submitted by Anthony D. Langford (4693 points) (938 posts) on Sun, 2008-11-23 02:11. |
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Noah is a thorn on Luke's side
When it says about Noah’s disbelief about Brian’s kiss one is tempted to think that it is like “come one Luke, you’re not that hot, I couldn’t make love to you even with a year-long span”. Poor Luke.
Yeah...
Exactly...
...it's not only dumb that Noah wouldn't believe him, keeping Luke's character in mind, but completely unbelievable considering their history. This would be a horrible, almost evil, thing to lie about. And considering the dire consequences of people making disclosures of this type and not being believed in the real world, these writers are seriously on thin ice.
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
And Yet.....
It wasn't just a lie though.
It wasn't just a lie though. Noah spent a number of scenes disapproving of Luke's campaign and the ballot box stuffing scheme specifically. Luke knew how Noah felt about it and Luke chose the campaign victory over his bf.
I probably wouldn't believe a scheming, off-the-wagon self-destructive Luke either about a guy he didn't like and who just suddenly married his grandmother.
Nope, just one lie.
Luke was always honest with Noah. It is out of character for Luke to lie. That is not his thing. And especially about something like what amounts to sexual abuse. Luke has never indicated that he would be capable of making up something like that and what would be his motive?
I don't know why everyone is still banging on about the ballot stuffing. Luke didn't plan it. Luke didn't do it. In a very weak moment all he said was "okay" to Casey. That's not being "crazed". That's not scheming. That was being talked into it as a last resort. He is off the wagon because he just lost the two most important things in his life. His education and his boyfriend. A lot less than that has driven me to drink.
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
Noah is not a jerk
More ugh
Noah's cold blood.
Can I see a show of hands?
Well....
Spoilers So Often Mislead, It's hard to judge I think...
Okay, be kind to me, but doesn't anyone have compassion for Noah?
Noah is not perfect but this situation is not his fault. Noah needs to use his words and maybe be more nuanced in his responses to things instead of immediately "acting" (going to nyc, joining the army, leaving the farm, etc) But he's still taking care of Luke, even from a distance.
I don't think Noah is being mean to Luke but he's not babying him either. He tried to sober Luke up (yes, coffee is magic, I know this for a fact!) he took Luke's keys and brought him home, he visited Lucinda in the hospital and he accepted Holden's invitation to Thanksgiving. Good for him
Noah spent last year in a constant state of PTSD as far as I'm concerned. Could he have handled it better, totally, but, he did what he could and he NEVER blamed Luke for his problems. One trauma and crisis after another, seriously, WTF. It was horrible what psycho Dad did to Luke but that wasn't Noah's fault. All Noah did was tell he very scary father the truth. It took him a minute but is that really so uncommon for coming out? It should be seen as an honorable and brave thing given the number of "real" gay adults who refuse to come out, you know, ever!
If every gay teen who had a girlfiend when they met their first boy love was treated the way some folks here treat the character Noah, no one would ever come out. Noah has a girlfrien, he slept with her, is that really so unusual?
So after everything that has happened to Noah in the past year (at the ripe age of 19/20 no less) I can forgive him for some crazy eractic decisions. But he never stopped telling Luke he loved him. Even when he said he needed a break, it wasn't about not loving Luke, he just needed a minute to wrap his head around all that happened and how did Luke respond? Like an impatient, insecure, stalker!
As for Ameera, granted I'm biased but I absolutely hate it when people agree to something they KNOW they don't want you to do then blame you for it afterward or get all pissy. It's so passive aggressive and selfish. Yes, sometimes you agree to something and realize its harder than you thought but still, you gotta suck it up and deal or get the hell out.
Maybe Noah wanted to help Ameera for the wrong reasons but once he and Luke decided to do it, they needed to follow through with it and not pitch 87 kinds of fits about having to hide from the I.C.E., etc
I don't blame Noah for not believing Luke. He's hardly a reliable source right now given that he's hitting the sauce 24/7. Now, if he's sober, he would probably not lie. But then again, who would have said a month ago that he'd cheat to win an election?
After everything they have BOTH been through this year, getting kicked out of school is what drives him to drink?
What did he think would happen when he was found out/suspected by the Dean? Even if Noah had lied for him, he would have been found out eventually. It doesn't take rocket science to notice someone cheated in the election, hence the investigation. If Noah had lied they would both have been expelled when the truth inevitably came out.
Noah tried to tell Luke not to fight fire with fire and Luke would have NONE OF IT. Noah was clear from the get go that he was not supportive of dirty tactics to win the election AND he thought Luke was out of control with the whole beating Kevin at all costs thing.
We are all responsible for how we decide to deal with a situation. The only person you can ever control is yourself. Luke had choices and he made the wrong ones. He's still making the wrong ones. If Luke's not ready to own up, no amount of hugs or sweet words is gonna make him do it.
Call me an idealistic Lesbian, but love should not be a chess game or some kind of tit for tat. "I did this for you so you have to do that for me" . That's like being in the mob. Manipulative crap. If you do something for a lover, you should do it because you want to, from your heart, no strings and not expect some equal "favor" later on in return and you shouldn't hold it against them.
Luke needs to stop throwing the past in Noah's face. Noah's psycho Dad, Ameera, etc. All that should have been laid to rest when they got back together after Noah decided not to join the Army. The fact that he keeps brining it up like somehow Noah owes him is petty.
Now, Noah is supposed to forgive Luke's crazed, obsessed, bratty behavior without so much as an "I'm sorry I've been such a horse's arse" from Luke by saying, "There there sugar, it's okay, I'll take you back, just step away from the bottle, all is forgiven?" PISHAW!
I want them to make up - There, I said it.
But I don't want them to get back together because Luke guilts Noah into it.
Okay, I'm ready...
P.S. We know the writers may never let them have sex so why keep blaming either character? Does that really make sense at this point? Keep the Consumation clock. I love the clock. But the writers have set up this impossible situation. Both have said they want it to be "special" (whatever that means) and they can't do it on Emma's property. Since Luke's never gonna leave the farm... Sigh...
"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorothy Parker)
Compassion For Noah?
umm.... no.
Not only has Noah been a lousy boyfriend, he's an butthead in the breakup too.
What's sad is that Luke doesn't think he deserves better.
Actually....
But....
The One Lie
Anthony - You keep talking about the "one lie". I've never replied before since you're usually so level-headed about things. But I finally feel I should express myself. It's been really bothering me that you and others have been so nonchalant about this "one lie". Doesn't the significance of the lie matter? And the ballot stuffing incident was far more than just a lie. It's a really, really big deal to try to steal an election, even if it's just a student body election. And then to repeatedly lie about it afterward, and expect your boyfriend to lie as well, when that boyfriend was begging you not to do it, is doubly bad. And you seem to blithely overlook it as no big deal. And then berate Noah for not lying as well, and then also for being upset with Luke for what he did. I'm just not getting it. Is your moral code such that you don't see the ballot stuffing as a major offense?
I know if I had a boyfriend who wanted to stuff the ballot box, and I repeatedly urged him not to, I'd be really upset when he followed through and did it anyway. Who was this guy that I was devoted to? Why would he do such a thing? And then expect me to lie for him afterward, even if I was dragged into the dean's office and asked a point blank question about it. If you were Noah would you not be deeply disillusioned at that point?
Actually....
..... I don't excuse what Luke has done. I never have. What Luke did was wrong. But this not about what Luke did, it's how Noah reacted to it. Not only has he been smugly morally superior (a joke considering the character's history), he dropped Luke without so much as a second thought. And after the truth was out, Luke came to his senses and wanted to heal the relationship. But Noah wasn't interested in that. One mistake by Luke and he was done. He completely cut Luke out of his life. And given that it was so easy for him to walk away from this relationship, makes me question his devotion to the relationship to begin with. It would be different if we see that Noah was torn or wanted to be with Luke or wanted to work things out, but couldn't handle what Luke had done. But we're not seeing that. What we saw was Noah immediately pack his things and move out. And what we're seeing now is Luke deeply mourning this relationship (in all the wrong ways) and Noah acting as if he just wants to put it behind him. Luke seems to be the only one hurting here and given that it makes me wonder if this is worth all the pain he's going through. It's hard to feel compassion or sympathy for Noah when he's showing absolutely none himself.
But I think the point of this is whether Noah should believe Luke or if he should just assume he's a liar since he lied before. As others have pointed out, Luke has never lied before and he's certainly never lied to Noah before. Not once. He's not like Paul or Carly who lie all the time so you have to question whether they're being truthful. Luke told one lie, big or small, it was just the one time. And Luke could have lied to Noah about the ballot box stuffing, but he didn't. Even then, he told Noah the truth. So if Luke didn't lie to Noah about that, why would he lie about this?
Believing Luke
I think we might be jumping the gun on the disbelieving Luke thing, since that hasn't aired yet. We don't know exactly how it happens. Maybe Noah's disbelief is no more than one of those instant reactions that changes fairly quickly as he considers it. Maybe Luke says it in such a way that Noah thinks it might have been imagined in a drunken stupor. Remember, even Luke, when he woke up, asked himself "did that really happen?".
As I said in my post above, I'm bothered by people considering Noah's reaction to be smugly morally superior. Personally, I didn't see anything remotely smug about it. And if someone does something that totally goes against your moral code, and then lies about it, and then asks you to lie, how should you react? Wouldn't you have to be disappointed, and disillusioned if it went against what you understood your boyfriend to be?
I'm still puzzled about you giving a couple of short sentences to saying Luke was wrong, and then going on at length about how awful Noah is. I would expect it to be the reverse. Luke was "bad" for what he did, and for asking Noah to lie, etc., etc. But oh, by the way, Noah should start to be a bit more forgiving, even though he was in the right to be disappointed. They can both be seen to be wrong, but in my own personal opinion I think the emphasis should be reversed.
I Just Found...
Noah's black and white attitude towards Luke smugly morally superior, not to mention hypocritical, given his own history. It's like 'when I told a lie, it was okay, but your lying made you a bad person'. And you keep mentioning Noah's moral code. The thing is, this moral code is newly discovered. It didn't exist 6 months ago. Noah was certainly more than willing to tell a lie when he felt it was necessarily. But he can't understand why Luke would lie, so either Noah is utterly clueless, or he's being blind because it suits his narrow view of the world. Noah has every right to be upset and angry and disappointed in Luke. What I have a problem with is him walking out on Luke and breaking off the relationship in the blink of an eye.
As for Luke, what is there to be said? He was wrong in cheating. Not only was he wrong, he still hasn't dealt with the reasons why he did what he did. It was never about gay rights or wanting to do the right thing. It wasn't about the film festival. From the moment he saw Kevin was involved, it was always about Kevin and his messy history with him. Luke wanted to pay Kevin back for rejecting him and that need for revenge drove him to do something deplorable. But all that has been lost in the breakup, the booze, what's going on with Brian and what's to come.
But we don't really know yet what Noah's gonna do
and you and I both know the spoilers are misleading. Remember when the spoilers were all "Brian tells Luke to jump in the closet and Noah agrees with Brian"
That's not Exactly what happened though. For like 1/2 second Noah was like, maybe Brian's right then he immediately changed his mind once Luke explained his position.
How could we possibly know what Noah feels about any of this when the only time we see him is when he's interacting with Luke or a member of the Snyder family. Has Holden or Lily even once asked Noah how he's doing? It's not like his life has been all sunshine and roses and he does exist in the world independently of Luke (or so one would assume)
Should he have risked getting expelled as well? Where's his support network? Lucinda could BUY Luke a university of she wanted to (okay, not really but you know what I mean) It's not like Luke's working the street corners for wino money.
I do have sympathy for Luke. It's crappy what's happenening. But he could have told Cassey "NO" and refused to go along with the ballot stuffing nonsense. Luke could have not let Kevin get under his skin to the point where he lost his sense of right and wrong.
Shoot if I'd been Noah, I would have called out Holden to snatch Luke back long before it got to stuffing the ballot for his own good. But then again, I'm like that.
We can't just assume Noah doesnt care or isn't misearable without Luke just because the ATWT writers are too cheap to give us a proper "Noah's suffering without Luke in his life " montages.
We don't even know where he's living for goodness sakes.
I know Luke is a primary character so he's the focus but I don't know how folks can even understand any of Noah's actions or feelings if the only time he gets to express himself outside Snyderworld is when Dusty happens to pass through Java.
Perhaps a bit more Noah focused narrative where he gets to talk to somebody (allison, cassey, dusty, ANYONE) might at least allow folks to see that there are two sides to the situation and not just Hate on Noah
Okay, I'm gonna stop until after Thanksgiving because I have high hopes I tell you. High Hopes . Me and the little old ant!
"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorothy Parker)
Made me see Noah's side but still -
seanb - I know if I had a boyfriend who wanted to stuff the ballot box, and I repeatedly urged him not to, I'd be really upset when he followed through and did it anyway. Who was this guy that I was devoted to? Why would he do such a thing? And then expect me to lie for him afterward, even if I was dragged into the dean's office and asked a point blank question about it. If you were Noah would you not be deeply disillusioned at that point?
When you put it like that I can see Noah's point. It's a major disillusionment. He thought he really knew Luke and now he's found out their sense of morality doesn't match. For a guy like Noah that goes to the heart of things. Makes sense and I'd likely feel the same way. One problem I have, though, is Noah's coldness. He just broke up with a guy he's supposed to still be in love with. Yet we don't see the pain. And because we don't see it it's easy to wonder if he cares all that much. He's not invested enough to give Luke a second chance? Are we, the viewers, more invested in their love affair than he is? Well, hell. That's likely why Team Luke is building.
Luke on the other hand is acting it out bigtime. He isn't just a mess because he got caught cheating and was expelled. He's a much bigger mess because he lost the guy he's crazy about on top of everything else. If you're a romantic like me you're going to feel more for the guy who's wearing his bleeding, repenting heart on his sleeve and repeatedly getting shot down by the intractable boyfriend.
Of course, Noah's behavior is the writers' fault - or plan. Who can tell with these character assassins?
Yeeeaahhh, but...
He thought he really knew Luke and now he's found out their sense of morality doesn't match.
Considering that he was perfectly willing to commit a felony and drag Luke along with him, I'm not sure Noah should be basking in his morality. I'm sure he told himself he was being noble and rescuing the damsel, but personally I'd have asked for a little proof before rushing to lie to the Feds. His high horse is pretty wobbly.
True, but....
....Noah really does believe everything he did was righteous. He thought that he was saving Amera and that was the greater good. Really, he was just being a fool but I can see how he doesn't think the two situations compare. He still thinks Luke went along with the ballot stuffing because of his need for winning. Noah still hasn't made the leap that Luke did it because of a deep abiding hurt in being scorned. Even Luke pointed out that he thinks Noah is simply jealous of Kevin. Neither of them are on the same page, nor even in the same library at this point.
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
Oh no, I agree, of course he